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Preadaptations and Convergent Evolution

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Teleological
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« on: February 05, 2010, 19:25:50 PM »

Echolocation and Prestin (the protein Cheesy)
Prestin is a transmembrane protein (10-12 transmembrane domains) with the ability to convert a change in membrane potential into a mechanical force (Gleitsman et al., 2009). It is a "direct voltage-to-force converter" and plays a crucial role in sound amplification in various organisms and thus play an important part in an organism's ability to sense sound waves (Dallos and Fakler, 2002, Li et al., 2010). What does the protein look like? From Dallos and Fakler, 2002 (Figure 1).


Figure 1: Prestin protein. From Dallos and Fakler, 2002.

Recent studies suggest that not only echolocating, but the Prestin gene that plays a role in echolocation, converged in several different species (different species of bats, dolphins, toothed whales) to perform the same function with convergent changes in the coding DNA of the gene (Li et al., 2010, Teeling, 2009).

Interestingly, the Prestin gene is found in an organism (Trichoplax adhaerens) with no nerve cells, sensory cells or muscle cells. Trichoplax adhaerens emerged before biletarians, way before any organisms without any sound sensing organs (Figure 2:)


Figure 2: Tree of life (Adapted from discoverlife.org)

The organism only has four cell types (Figure 3).


Figure 3: Link



So what is the Prestin gene doing in the genome of an organism with no hearing apparatus or nervous system and emerged long before these kinds of organisms or organs for sound wave mechanosensing?

Perhaps echolocation relies on a common design? Well these guys say so....

I donno about that (sounds like the words of IDiots, but I digress), perhaps the manifestation of echolocation relies on a distinct form of matter....the coding of Prestin? The emergence of this protein form just guaranteed that echolocation was on the cards over vast evolutionary time scales even though it was present way before echolocation even played an important role in nature.
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« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2010, 19:48:41 PM »

So what is the Prestin gene doing in the genome of an organism with no hearing apparatus or nervous system and emerged long before these kinds of organisms or organs for sound wave mechanosensing?
I dunno, your god put it there?



The emergence of this protein form just guaranteed that echolocation was on the cards over vast evolutionary time scales even though it was present way before echolocation even played an important role in nature.
Well that settles it then.  Your god put it there.  Yay.

'Luthon64
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« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2010, 19:51:58 PM »

So what is the Prestin gene doing in the genome of an organism with no hearing apparatus or nervous system and emerged long before these kinds of organisms or organs for sound wave mechanosensing?
I dunno, your god put it there?



The emergence of this protein form just guaranteed that echolocation was on the cards over vast evolutionary time scales even though it was present way before echolocation even played an important role in nature.
Well that settles it then.  Your god put it there.  Yay.

'Luthon64
So... when the section says "Science and Technology", you decide to talk about God? Wonderful logic there muffy, and you guys say religious people are bothered with God and bitch and moan that I derail threads. How amusing.
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« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2010, 19:56:02 PM »

You ask question.

I answer like your brain.

You don’t like?

I no care.

'Luthon64
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« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2010, 19:56:47 PM »

Ok bye now, come back when you have anything useful to say thanks or something that resembles some form of intelligence. Remember, misrepresenting and mischaracterization of others so that you can look cool and hip to your lapdogs might be cool to you, but there are others interested in a little more than this superficial BS you like so much.
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« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2010, 19:59:18 PM »

Your say be useful?

Mmm, sorry, no. Kiss

'Luthon64
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« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2010, 20:08:48 PM »

Ok fine, I will let you be useless.
So how about that preadaptation and convergence? Interesting not?
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« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2010, 20:23:03 PM »

So how about that preadaptation and convergence? Interesting not?
Of course it’s interesting!  But directed?  Evidence for teleology?  Proof of guided evolution?  Not on your whatevers.  That’s why you post this stuff:  Not because it’s intriguing but because you can squeeze some god mileage out of it.

Your respect for science is nil.  Your pretences and deceits are obvious to anyone who has looked at what and how you present stuff.

But I repeat myself.

'Luthon64
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« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2010, 20:43:12 PM »

So what is the Prestin gene doing in the genome of an organism with no hearing apparatus or nervous system and emerged long before these kinds of organisms or organs for sound wave mechanosensing?

Hey man, I'm wondering if it was not just one of those chance fluke mutation thingies. And whether this Prestin stuff doesn't just remain in this funny little organism as junk DNA, with no function yet known, or maybe with no function at all ( imagine THAT!! ).

Of course if the Great Designer had really wanted to help this Trichoplax adhaerens he might have given it some wheels or something. Wheels are really cool things, but the Great Designer didn't seem to have any use for them. Sad.

Well these guys say so....[/url]

I donno about that (sounds like the words of IDiots, but I digress),

Sure does. I will offer to give the authors a short sharp kick in their card-readers for incorrectly using a word with teleological implications. Silly people, really.

The emergence of this protein form just guaranteed that echolocation was on the cards over vast evolutionary time scales even though it was present way before echolocation even played an important role in nature.

Ain't it amazing how chance mutational schitt that happens sometimes results in changes that become important for survival selection? And how said schitt ends up being of no use at all to other organisms ( such as the one you refer to wif piccies an' all )?

More exciting developments are "on the cards" in a swamp near you.  Wink

( Oy vey, how I hate all this biology stuffs ).
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« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2010, 20:44:19 PM »

Blah blah blah, more delusional caricutures of others from you. Don't you get tired of spewing your BS?

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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2010, 20:44:20 PM »

Quote
Interestingly, the Prestin gene is found in an organism (Trichoplax adhaerens) with no nerve cells, sensory cells or muscle cells. Trichoplax adhaerens


I agree, that is interesting. Can you please link this statement to a source? I'd like to see if the gene is expressed or not. Thanks.

Mintaka
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« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2010, 20:49:07 PM »

So what is the Prestin gene doing in the genome of an organism with no hearing apparatus or nervous system and emerged long before these kinds of organisms or organs for sound wave mechanosensing?

Hey man, I'm wondering if it was not just one of those chance fluke mutation thingies. And whether this Prestin stuff doesn't just remain in this funny little organism as junk DNA, with no function yet known, or maybe with no function at all ( imagine THAT!! ).

Of course if the Great Designer had really wanted to help this Trichoplax adhaerens he might have given it some wheels or something. Wheels are really cool things, but the Great Designer didn't seem to have any use for them. Sad.

Well these guys say so....[/url]

I donno about that (sounds like the words of IDiots, but I digress),

Sure does. I will offer to give the authors a short shark kick in their card-readers for incorrectly using a word with teleological implications. Silly people, really.

The emergence of this protein form just guaranteed that echolocation was on the cards over vast evolutionary time scales even though it was present way before echolocation even played an important role in nature.

Ain't it amazing how chance mutational schitt that happens sometimes results in changes that become important for survival selection? And how said schitt ends up being of no use at all to other organisms ( such as the one you refer to wif piccies an' all )?

More exciting developments are "on the cards" in a swamp near you.  Wink

( Oy vey, how I hate all this biology stuffs ).
Oh vey, another moron talking about the great designer and making philosophically vacuous arguments in the science sections.
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« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2010, 20:50:09 PM »

Quote
Interestingly, the Prestin gene is found in an organism (Trichoplax adhaerens) with no nerve cells, sensory cells or muscle cells. Trichoplax adhaerens


I agree, that is interesting. Can you please link this statement to a source? I'd like to see if the gene is expressed or not. Thanks.

Mintaka
The link to the gene is provided. However further research needs to be done to determine the function of the protein in that organism and whether it is expressed or not.
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« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2010, 20:55:07 PM »

The link to the gene is provided. However further research needs to be done to determine the function of the protein in that organism.

I'll splash out and bet R1-00c it's plain junk DNA.  Tongue
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« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2010, 21:06:30 PM »

Teleological, I scanned briefly through the lengthy article and could not locate the Prestin gene reference, but it is Friday and my eyes are tired Undecided - where exactly did you see that the Prestin gene is present in Trichoplax?


Mintaka

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« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2010, 21:35:01 PM »

The link to the gene is provided. However further research needs to be done to determine the function of the protein in that organism.

I'll splash out and bet R1-00c it's plain junk DNA.  Tongue
So far, nothing has been proven to be junk, just speculation, so good luck that. Bit anti-scientific to throw your arms up in the air and say: "look, we can't find a function, therefor we are just going to assume it is junk.""
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« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2010, 21:46:40 PM »

Teleological, I scanned briefly through the lengthy article and could not locate the Prestin gene reference, but it is Friday and my eyes are tired Undecided - where exactly did you see that the Prestin gene is present in Trichoplax?


Mintaka



Go here
Select protein (above the seach text bar)
Search for Prestin
Click on any organism's prestin protein (e.g. prestin [Meriones unguiculatus])
Click FASTA
Copy the sequence
Then go here
Click BLAST
Select Blastp (In alignment program)
Paste sequence into box and submit job
Then click on the best hit and you should get this

You can use that sequence and compare it to many other species.

Go here and blast it.

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« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2010, 22:51:54 PM »

Wowee, it’s just too coincidental that Prestin-Based Outer Hair Cell Motility Is Necessary for Mammalian Cochlear Amplification, that T. adhaerens uses cilia for locomotion and that all at the same time cilia are instrumental in auditory function!

This god is just wa-a-a-a-y too clever for words, putting hair on Placozoa so that they can hear predators coming through their feet, a cunning plan he extended to grasshoppers too.

What can I say?  I am stunned to bits.

ETA: In case it’s not clear, cilia = hair.

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« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2010, 22:59:09 PM »

Hey look, you got a hypothesis going there old muffy, now all you have to do is go and test it and see what exactly Prestin does in Trichoplax (you know, a bit more specific, don't want you to throw your hands in the air and say you know it all you know). Don't know why you sound so incredulous... prestin is a mechanosensor that was obviously co-opted into various forms of mechanosensing...
So much for rwenzori chop's junk DNA "hypothesis". Why couldn't you just do this in the first place.... oh wait, you still like to use God in your discussions. My oh my, and they say religious people are bothered with God..tsk tsk

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« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2010, 23:07:15 PM »

Right, and you read my reply, studied all of those references and typed up a 60-plus word reply in, let’s see now, seven minutes and fifteen seconds, yes?

Hey, far be it from me to pretend that I can compete with such unparalleled genius.

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« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2010, 23:13:19 PM »

OK thanks. Went through the drill and compared the mouse prestin with Trichoplaxproteins and the best fit was with two proteins that matched up 69 and 61 % with the mouse protein. That does seem like a fair amount of overlap.

In the light of Luthon's link to the ciliate nature of the animal's ventral side, I'm assuming that the proteins are actually being produced, and weren't just "theoretically" deduced from the genome.

So it looks as if a protein that was originally used for locomotion was called up for auditory duty in mammals?

Mintaka
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« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2010, 23:17:47 PM »

Right, and you read my reply, studied all of those references and typed up a 60-plus word reply in, let’s see now, seven minutes and fifteen seconds, yes?

Hey, far be it from me to pretend that I can compete with such unparalleled genius.

'Luthon64

Obviously not as brilliant as this "genius"  Evil...
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« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2010, 23:23:45 PM »


So it looks as if a protein that was originally used for locomotion was called up for auditory duty in mammals?

Mintaka

Perhaps more to do with sensing than locamotion? Still, this animal has no nervous system so the structures that carry out the sensing and relaying of information towards locamotion and other goal-directed behaviour seems like fascinating questions that needs to be answered... Who knows, maybe microtubules do somehow play a role in computing?

Tubulin and actin - live cell imaging


And perhaps quantum computing should not be dicarded just yet  Tongue
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« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2010, 23:36:21 PM »

Quote
Perhaps more to do with sensing than locamotion?

The article above states that "Trichoplax adheres to the substrate as it moves propelled by its ventral cilia." In any case, it should be easy enough to verify under a microscope. And this protein is associated with cilia, not so?  What makes you think that sensing may be involved?

Mintaka
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« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2010, 23:37:51 PM »

Cilia are used for mechanosensing in your ears as well and Prestin plays its role there. Prestin has not been associated with any locomotion related functions.
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« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2010, 23:46:20 PM »

Still, it is a motor protein.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_protein
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« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2010, 23:50:46 PM »

It is a "direct voltage-to-force converter". I guess you can envision the organism generating voltage impulses to drive the motor to aid it in locomotion. I still think mechanosensing is the most likely explanation, besides, there are plenty of other motor proteins that can do the job of locomotion as well.
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« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2010, 00:03:22 AM »

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/123198229/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Have a look at this article on the shaping (elongating and stiffening) the hair cell (called electromotility). To me this seems more mechanical than mechanosensory. So the question is, does prestin respond to signal, or does it generate a signal? Is it a motor or a dynamo?

Mintaka
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« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2010, 06:53:35 AM »

Bit anti-scientific to throw your arms up in the air and say: "look, we can't find a function, therefor we are just going to assume it is junk."


I'm just sticking to the scientific definition, old boy - one that has been shoved in front of your uncomprehending face numerous times in the past only to be ignored because it does not correlate well with your preconceived notions:


Quote
In evolutionary biology and molecular biology, junk DNA is a provisional label for the portions of the DNA sequence of a chromosome or a genome for which no function has been identified.



BTW, is a "caricuture" a cute comical depiction?  Grin
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« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2010, 14:31:06 PM »

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/123198229/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Have a look at this article on the shaping (elongating and stiffening) the hair cell (called electromotility). To me this seems more mechanical than mechanosensory. So the question is, does prestin respond to signal, or does it generate a signal? Is it a motor or a dynamo?

Mintaka

I couldn't access the above link. I forgot to add the references in the first post though, apologies for that. Here they are:

Dallos, P., & Fakler, B. (2002). PRESTIN, A NEW TYPE OF MOTOR PROTEIN Nature Reviews Molecular Cell Biology, 3 (2), 104-111 DOI: 10.1038/nrm730

Li, Y., Liu, Z., Shi, P., & Zhang, J. (2010). The hearing gene Prestin unites echolocating bats and whales Current Biology, 20 (2) DOI: 10.1016/j.cub.2009.11.042

Weber T, Gopfert MC, Winter H, Zimmermann U, Kohler H, Meier A, Hendrich O, Rohbock K, Robert D, & Knipper M (2003). Expression of prestin-homologous solute carrier (SLC26) in auditory organs of nonmammalian vertebrates and insects. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, 100 (13), 7690-5 PMID: 12782792

Gleitsman, K., Tateyama, M., & Kubo, Y. (2009). Structural rearrangements of the motor protein prestin revealed by fluorescence resonance energy transfer AJP: Cell Physiology, 297 (2) DOI: 10.1152/ajpcell.00647.2008

Teeling, E. (2009). Hear, hear: the convergent evolution of echolocation in bats? Trends in Ecology & Evolution, 24 (7), 351-354 DOI: 10.1016/j.tree.2009.02.012

Check out the Gleitsman article (as well as Dallos):
Prestin is not a motor protein like ATPases or spindle proteins that walk on microtubules. It also undergoes conformational changes, however it is voltage regulated and not an enzymatic-activity-based motor.

Look at the structure of the cochlea and the location of the cilia (the outer hair cells - OHCs) (from Dallos):


When OHCs stimulated by incoming sound waves, the mechanosensitive ion channels in the stereocilia membrane of OHCs become activate, thereby changing the voltage-potential of the membrane. This voltage potential is converted into mechanical movement (as a result of prestin motor action), and in the ear this movement is used to amplify sound waves whereby the OHCs mechanically vibrate up and down due to the structural rearrangements of the motor protein, prestin.

The inner hair cells are the sensory receptors and transmit the amplified sound information to the brain. So to answer your question, prestin responds to a signal that mechanically alters the cell membrane potential of OHCs, and the amplifies this signal by generating another mechanical signal. It is an amplifier to put is simply. And the same mutations (an example of convergent evolution) in bats, some dolphins, as well as whales allowed it to be sensitive enough for echolocation.



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